Forum Topic

ANPR cameras and Experimental Traffic Orders

Have just been looking at the traffic orders issued by Hounslow Council about the restrictions on Turnham Green Terrace and Devonshire Road. Despite detail plans being published about signs and  parking bays there is no mention anywhere of ANPR cameras or any other means of enforcement being added.Does that mean that there will be a separate order for these and, if so, can that be made as an experimental order or does it need to be consulted on before implementation?If not is it correct to assume that there will be no camera enforcement? In which case how will the rules be enforced or will there be no enforcement at all so that the restrictions would just apply to the law abiding?

Francis Rowe ● 2310d28 Comments

Don't speak too soon.I have just passed Devonshire Road and there is a mobile cctv can parked outside the bath shop. It was there half an hour earlier when I passed the other way.I went and took photos much to the discomfort of the chap inside.I don't know if there is another further down to catch access only drivers but whatever they are up to it's a sure way to further kill off business in the road.

Adrian Irving ● 2310d

I was told by a Hounslow employee in Devonshire Road that ANPR cameras were a proposal for that location.

Steven Trembath ● 2310d

Of course they are. You don't expect LB Hounslow to pass up a chance to make more money from Chiswick, do you ?

Richard Greenhough ● 2310d

But they won't make more money if people abide by the signs.

Peter Evans ● 2310d

Peter, are the signs clear. I gather in theory you can using loading bays on both TGT and DR, but this is not clearly signed. How do you proceed if they are all taken? There are also blue badge spaces, how does the CCTV or ANPR know if you cant find a free one? Again, there is no clarity and the whole thing is a mess.

Paul Green ● 2310d

"there is no mention anywhere of ANPR cameras or any other means of enforcement being added"IIRC Traffic Order will refer to the relevant regulations and legislation that covers enforcement. There is no need for all this to be repeated in the traffic order itself.

Michael Robinson ● 2310d

"..there is no clarity and the whole thing is a mess.."The responsible councillors have declined the request to provide some clarity on this forum.

Richard Greenhough ● 2310d

"I gather in theory you can using loading bays on both TGT and DR, but this is not clearly signed."It's covered by except for access.  "How do you proceed if they are all taken?"Same as you would on any other road.  You carry on and try to find a bay elsewhere."There are also blue badge spaces, how does the CCTV or ANPR know if you cant find a free one?"It doesn't need to. The TMO says that blue badge holders displaying the badge are exempt if they are accessing with the intention of parking in a disabled bay.  The fact that it mentions displaying the badge may imply that they will use cameras that will show the badge on display as well as reading the number plate.

Richard Jennings ● 2310d

I can confirm there are now small and quite high up no entry signs on TGT as you come along from Bath Road. If I hadnt know to look for them I would have missed it. Plus a camera sign. Money raising pure and simple. Lots of cars driving down.

Paul Green ● 2310d

Richard, if its so remarkably simple, what role do cameras play? Is their a minimum period to spend on the road, before generating a ticket? If go with the genuine intention of finding a loading bay, but there is not one, what do I do? Also, if you support the closure of a key local route, can you explain why, what benefit you expect and where the displaced traffic will go?

Paul Green ● 2310d

So is TGT now closed to cars? Can't work out what is going on. Other half will be dropping off someone later on, so better make sure he goes down Acton Lane or the back streets around M&S to get back to/from the high road.

Julie Morse ● 2310d

Also Richard, are you really now saying also that disabled motorists need to have a blue badge on display somewhere before entering, to safely access these roads? Also sounds like a great excuse for anyone with a blue badge to contine using both roads as through routes.

Paul Green ● 2310d

Yes, we are no longer allowed to drive around our local community. THe nutcases have won. Why I wonder are they not randomly closing roads in central Hounslow on the basis they are also 'rat runs'.

Paul Green ● 2310d

The central part of Hounslow High Street has been closed to cars for a good few years.

Richard Greenhough ● 2310d

Indeed, but there are plenty of other roads around the town centre that could easily fit into the new LBH definiton of a 'rat run', but I dont see any of them being shut now. Strange.

Paul Green ● 2310d

I imagine that ANPR cameras at the High Road junction and near the Glebe Street junction will measure how long a vehicle has taken to pass both cameras. If it's a very short time, the assumption would be made that the vehicle wasn't there for access.  Not sure how they'll deal with a van that finds the loading bays full."If [I] go with the genuine intention of finding a loading bay, but there is not one, what do I do?"  My advice would be to continue and turn left into Ingress Street, then Annandale Road.  If you get a ticket, write to me at parking@rjen.uk ; it should be possible to get it cancelled if you were clearly seeking access to a shop that could not be accessed by any other route.I honestly don't know if the Devonshire Road scheme will work well.  The main reason for doing it is to provide more space for social distancing, more space for shops to trade from the pavement (and not all can benefit from that), and generally to encourage less reliance on cars for short journeys and make the road a more attractive shopping street.  If that is what's needed to help us recover from the lockdown, then I'm prepared to put up with a little inconvenience.As a Glebe Estate resident, I'm concerned that it may force more traffic on to streets with little spare capacity, but there may be ways to mitigate that.  I think it will be September before we find out the true traffic impact.

Richard Jennings ● 2310d

As others have suggested, the main short term purpose of this scheme is to provide more space in these two shopping streets for pedestrians to maintain safe distancing by spreading into the road, where parking bays will be suspended and through traffic reduced. As I understand it, under the legislation, any longer term ambitions as part of a wider traffic management scheme can be argued about later.  As for the signs, they mean what they say - 'No Motor Vehicles Except for Access' - and all drivers should be familiar with what they mean and how to respond to them. It's of no concern whether there are cameras or a person with a clip board or nothing.  We're all used to obeying road signs without asking each time 'how is it going to be enforced' and looking for loopholes, and these signs should be no different.

Peter Evans ● 2310d

Peter, as you have posted this on another thread, I will add my response here as well. It is perfectly possible to implement social distancing by reducing parking bays, though preferably not then filling them with large planters.on TGT there will still be the E3, lots of delivery vans and lorries, local access traffic, scooters and bikes. It will not be safe to walk in the carriageway. So removing the through traffic will have no tangible impact on social distancing. I use TGT a lot and never felt traffic was a problem. DId anyone?The TFL guidance and funding refers specifially to 'rat runs' on residential streets. It does not refer to closing key local routes such as TGT, one of only 3 roads that allow local residents to cross the tube lines. with planned closures also of Fishers's Lane, the community is being cut in half. the one remaining route on Acton Lane cannot cope with the displaced traffic. What happends if there is an accident or roadworks on Acton Lane? If TGT closure is made permanent and as traffic volumes increase, the western end of CHR and Acton lane/ South Parade will see near permanent gridlock. THis used to happen most evenings but will become most times of the day.

Paul Green ● 2310d

"The TFL guidance and funding refers specifially to 'rat runs' on residential streets. It does not refer to closing key local routes such as TGT,"No, that is incorrect.This is what the DfT guidance to TfL and London boroughs says:"To receive any money under this or future tranches, boroughs and TfL will need to satisfy the Department that there are swift and meaningful plans in place to reallocate road space to cyclists and pedestrians, including on strategic corridors.The quickest and cheapest way of achieving this will normally be point closures. These can be of certain main roads (with exceptions for buses, access and for disabled people, and with other main roads kept free for through motor traffic); or of parallel side streets, if sufficiently direct to provide alternatives to the main road. Point closures can also be used to create low-traffic filtered neighbourhoods."It is clear that the government guidance covers both residential streets and main roads.

Michael Robinson ● 2310d

I thought these Experimental Traffic Order were a national initiative to fund quick and simple modifications to selected roads to make things easier for pedestrians and cyclists in the present emergency. If they turn out not to work or have a negative impact elsewhere, they can easily be removed. The pavement in TGT might be OK in normal times, but with more customers having to wait outside shops to take their turn to go in, there's now not enough room for people to pass safely without spilling into the road.

Peter Evans ● 2310d

Peter, Experimental Traffic Orders have existed for over 35 years - introduced in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to be precise.The only change the government has made is to shorten the time needed to implement the orders, so now a notice does not need to be published in a local newspaper.

Michael Robinson ● 2310d

Peter, if people 'spill into the road' on TGT, they are likely to be hit by a bus, a car or a van. Strange that I have walked up and down TGT dozens of times in recent weeks, including last weekend, without need to step into the carriageway.It is tricky now though to negotiate the large concrete planters, perhaps these can be moved in order to create more room for social distancing, I repeat, I have never considered traffic volumes on TGT a problem, nor ever met anyone who did. With the additional planned closure of Fisher's Lane (which I think is a good idea), it will become almost impossible to travel around the local area. Some of us do need to use a car on some occasions.

Paul Green ● 2310d

Michael has stated that just referring to the legislation which will be enforced means the method of enforcement is covered by the order and he generally is right about this sort of thing. What remains unclear is why such detailed plans, which includes the placement of individual signs doesn't specify where the cameras will be.

Francis Rowe ● 2310d

Francis, the cameras just need to enforce the regulations. The actual placement of the cameras doesn’t matter as long as they can do this. There will be cameras with different technical specs maybe giving several options for locations as well.There are regulations for placement of signs depending on speed limit of road, street lighting etc etc so the plans have these.  The signage should include a camera sign.

Michael Robinson ● 2310d

It's clear from a short period of observation this afternoon that very few vehicles seem to be taking any notice of the new 'Access Only' arrangements in Turnham Green Terrace  To be charitable, this could be because drivers who use the route regularly just aren't 'seeing' the new signs. But this must happen all the time with new installations and there must be standard ways of 'helping' drivers to abide by them.  A team of people in hi-vis jackets would help, stopping vehicles and asking them where they're going and explaining what they should be doing. Or ACCESS ONLY freshly painted across each end of the road. It's certainly no good as it is, and just clocking people on cameras isn't the answer, as that accepts the status quo and fails to put the intended improvement into effect.

Peter Evans ● 2309d

'Intended improvments', or revenue raising. I think sadly we know the answer, a badly thought out scheme rushed through to do something, it wont actualy deliver the improvements some claim (unless you want to get run over in the carriageway by a bus or van), but will be a nice earner for LBH. Which is also why any subsequent consultation will prove futile to overturning this.

Paul Green ● 2309d

Yes it has been closed for years, but isn't there a huge car park to one side of the main shopping centre ? We dont have that amenity in Chiswick!

Loraine Pemberton ● 2309d

Nice picture of Cllr Guy Lambert standing by one of the potholes in Chiswick. Can we have one by the plantpots in Devonshire Road and the white plastic cubes closing off Duke Road to make a hat trick. That rhymed and I didn't even mean it to!!

Robert Joseph Manners ● 2309d