Forum Topic

Matt Hancock funding the NHS

10 Billion pounds the NHS needHe won’t give straight answer to Andrew Marr He is getting a grilling now the Marr show

Jon morris ● 2312d66 Comments

Interestingly he said that the proportion of Covid-19 deaths in care homes was lower than in the rest of Europe. Only, almost immediately,  to be contradicted by the head of the NHS who said the proportion was similar to the rest of Europe, about 40%. Stevens made a strong case for a properly funded, properly paid social care sector without 25% of staff being on zero hours contracts.  And he wants it done in one year. That is going to cost a lot of money that local authorities simply haven't got.

David McLoughlin ● 2312d

Looks like Stevens is proposing a centrally funded National Care Service. See page 36 of the 2019 Labour Manifesto for more details.

Peter Evans ● 2311d

Read Andrew Rawnsley's piece in The Observer today - ye Gods - it is horrifying.

Vanessa Smith ● 2311d

You mean the tax payer is going to have to fund all the covid deficit, plus Extra funding for NHS plus social services where does it stop.....we need a whole new rethink of how as a country we can afford to fund the level of services people want. Taxing people will not cover this level of spending.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2311d

Well, either we wake up to the fact that these services - if we want them - have to be paid for via increased tax, or, you are advocating a private system. That in essence means that only those - as usual - with pots of money can afford these things - a two tier society, which many of us would find abhorrent. We already have that with housing in this country - which is a basic right, shall we also have an 'affordable' health service where the term 'affordable' is not defined and where so many are locked out of the system? Anything is affordable providing you have the money. Our NHS with all its faults is the most envied health system in the world and long may it be so.

Vanessa Smith ● 2311d

Well Covid 19 has sure as hell shown what problems can be caused to other people as well as those actually on zero hours contracts.

Philippa Bond ● 2311d

Re our national health we spend billions every year to stitch up the drunken wounded over the weekends, not to mention security to protect the doctors and nurses on the frontline. So let us start by imposing a £100 levy for anyone using the NHS due to alcohol fuelled injuries for starters. Let us also start giving out on the spot fines for antisocial behaviour which requires the police to turn up. Forget a court appearance for possession of drugs, £100 on the spot fine increased to £200 if not payed within 7 days. Society needs a wake up call and why should I have to pay more tax for those who cannot be bothered to behave like civilised human beings. Hit em where it hurts.

James Smith-Jones ● 2311d

Totally agree James those that generate wealth for the country also are the people taking risks, employing people, employers NI and now pensions. You can only squeeze so much out of people before they decide to move elsewhere. That’s a race to the bottom and a just crazy concept. Perhaps some NHS treatments need to be paid for...we need to rethink because  attacking a small percentage of the population for more tax isn’t fair and isn’t going to cover the enormous costs involved which everyone benefits from. If you want better services everyone has to pay!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2311d

Much of our taxation is on expenditure. While it sounds logical to argue that those who are hospitalised as a consequence of drink, tobacco or drugs should pay, the same could be applied to people involved in road accidents, children hurt in playparks etc. It is easy to argue that people should be responsible for their own actions. Accordingly, those who don't drink, avoid going on the roads, and avoid other risky activities and live to a ripe old age as a consequence should finance their own care as their avoidance strategies also include avoiding paying taxes on alcohol, tobacco, petrol and other vehicle taxes. The savings they have made, properly invested, would pay for their elderly care.Few would agree with the second set of circumstances. However, the logic in both paragraphs is consistent. The choice for us all is indeed stark - better services cost money therefore we agree as a society that we need to share the burden of ensuring adequate levels of public services as fairly as possible. OR we don't.

John Connelly ● 2311d

John you are taking it to extremes, bad behaviour being drunk is one thing car accident is another. There must be loads of non essential treatments performed every year we need to look at then and consider a charge, plus missed appointment, improve efficiencies, etc. NHS can’t just hold out their hands for more money we don’t have it. Totally agree that everyone should pay if they want and value the service, old age is another tough nut to crack.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2311d

We don’t have it? I remember a bus with £350 million written in the side of it.

Stewart Jones ● 2311d

They want another 10 billion in addition to what we already fund crazy numbers, we can’t afford it in current terms.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2311d

How do you know we can’t afford it? The government is not very forthcoming with their housekeeping accounts. When Grenfell happened a lot of us were staggered at how much money Kensington and Chelsea Council had amassed.

Vivienne Cox ● 2311d

There is a big difference between household accounting and government accounting.

Philippa Bond ● 2311d

Britain is one of the very wealthiest countries in the world.  Of course we can afford to fund the NHS - and social care - properly.  It’s just a matter of political will.

Alastair Banton ● 2311d

People should remember this refusal at the next election. Remember leading up to covid we had 4000000 on the waiting list!

Nicholas Beard ● 2311d

Remind us all in 4 1/2 years please Nicholas

Paul Fisher ● 2311d

Government debt has soared so we borrow and pay interest, if we get out of control, ££££ sinks, inflation rises, recession, etc a bleak outlook we can’t afford everything so pick and everyone pays more, your choice. Remember governmentS don’t have any money, it is taxpayers money! There is no magic money tree it’s called you and me work, pay tax, spend pay tax, buy a house pay tax, die pay tax!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

Yes. Theresa May told that nurse on the Question Time programme that there was no magic money tree after she had not had any pay rise for years.  The NHS is short of many staff which has as a result been losing them staff because of overwork and underpay.  Anybody would think that it was a deliberate attempt to get rid of it.  Forests have subsequently materialised.

Philippa Bond ● 2310d

'Of course we can afford to fund the NHS - and social care - properly.  It’s just a matter of political will.'Exactly, the government can do what it wants if it has the will to do so. They shifted themselves and found the money quickly enough when they were terrified of what the virus could do. Now they need the same will to ensure we get a national care service, a massive social housing programme, and properly funded NHS and local services. Pay the student nurses what they were promised too. All that total b/s about not having a magic money tree - and all those years of austerity - for what?

Vanessa Smith ● 2310d

For what?  To make the rich richer and the poor poorer.  At least that’s what’s been happening for a long time.  A rebalance is overdue.  Tories used to talk about the ‘trickle down’ effect to justify not taxing the rich, but if this ever worked it certainly doesn’t now.

Alastair Banton ● 2310d

Whilst we might be a wealthy country by some standards the wealth has been distributed just look at our low unemployment figures over the past few years, sadly after covid jobs will disappear, retail, hospitality etc. so tax payers will be funding a massive increase in social benefits that’s not great for the people who have lost their jobs. Jobs give people a lot more than money, dignity, self worth, confidence etc. When we tax a minority of the population more and still don’t have enough to fund the services for everyone what do you suggest we do? this is not a sustainable model we need to get a lot more creative than just taxing a few people.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

"still don’t have enough to fund the services for everyone what do you suggest we do?" More  Virtue signalling. Vanessa should get a crate and pop down speakers corner. 😎

Julian Pavey ● 2310d

You know when people - as they do - say, could you do any better? Given this pile of crap that is the government of this country - my answer would be yes - and so could untold numbers of people, not to mention my cat.After the war this country was skint but built homes, and found the money for the foundation of the NHS, both meant job creation. That means people contributing to the exchequer, as does providing local services, as does having a properly funded and regulated state run caring service for the frail elderly and so on. Of course we should all pay in according to our means so a complete overhaul of our tax system wouldn't go amiss either, not to mention plugging all the tax loopholes for those who salt money away in overseas tax havens.

Vanessa Smith ● 2310d

Low unemployment figures - yes, thanks to the ‘gig economy’, but seven out of ten children in households with someone working are living in poverty.  That’s not defensible.  And as for distribution of wealth and income in the U.K. - it’s shocking.  There’s plenty of scope to further tax high earners and wealth in order to move towards a fairer society that funds the NHS, protects the most vulnerable and creates jobs.

Alastair Banton ● 2310d

History has taught us if we have high taxes the wealth moves overseas, history has also taught us that higher taxes means actually less £££ collected as people find clever ways to handle their wealth. Totally agree that the really wealthy should cough up more because they do not pay their fair share Philip Green an example personally I can’t stand the man, these people have so much they can hide it. So it’s left to the hard working people who are doing well but not in the super league. By the way 31st December 2006 we finished our debt payment from WW2! As I say we need to get more creative, example charge £5 per doctors appointment obviously those on benefits exempt, no more missed appointments!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

'example charge £5 per doctors appointment obviously those on benefits exempt, no more missed appointments!'The NHS - free at the point of delivery.

Vanessa Smith ● 2310d

‘History has taught us if we have high taxes the wealth moves overseas ... and higher taxes means actually less £££ collected as people find clever ways to handle their wealth’That’s what the wealthy want you to believe but whereas a few may leave the majority won’t.  See The Myth of Millionaire Flight by Cristobal Young.  Also the idea that higher taxes means less collected is logically absurd because it implies that we might as well collect no taxes at all.  And you were asking for creative thought and that route would ensure that more tax owed will be collected.  No, we could easily raise taxes on high earners without problems.  We’ve got to do it.

Alastair Banton ● 2310d

Oh, and that idea of fining non attending patients £5.  I can’t see it raising more than the cost of administering the system, apart from it being a betrayal of ‘free at the point of delivery’.

Alastair Banton ● 2310d

Perhaps free at the point of use needs to change so that people actually value the service.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

Used to think paying for appointments was the answer, the problem with missed appointments is that I found out for myself that you receive the appointment letter after the date of the appointment which don't help.

Janice Evans ● 2310d

If we ever do have to pay they will have to get their act together and get appointment letters out on time, for hospitals that is.

Janice Evans ● 2310d

Janice, nothing like an incentive to get more efficient ha!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

The NHS also needs to not automatically make appointments for people for who have already died or moved away.

Philippa Bond ● 2310d

Thanks for all these great appointment ideas for the NHS. All good. But sorry, in the face of a need for billions more funding these ideas are valid but not enough. We need a major input into our government and social funding. More tax on goods (VAT) risks reducing buying. More tax on monthly income has limitations too. So the obvious option is tax on wealth. Perhaps complex to apply but a needed balance to many of the tax avoidance mechanisms.

Alan Clark ● 2310d

The people who seem to pay the most tax are those that can't avoid it by paying PAYE.  I think everybody should pay graduated tax all the way up the scale and not a reduced sum for higher earners as it is now.  Those who earn more have the money to pay for tax advice which those on lower pay don't have the money to pay for.  Surely cuts in personnel at HMRC has not helped them to pursue cases they might otherwise have done. The movement of staff between HMRC to wealth management companies doesn't help to reduce the loopholes which sometimes you wonder about and whether or not they have been deliberately introduced. Trickle down is a myth.

Philippa Bond ● 2310d

Earnings as defined by PAYE are one thing. Wealth accumulation is often another thing. Avoidance of capital gains would appear to be easy for some. There are hundreds of other duck outs. Tax is for the poor as one MP has said.

Alan Clark ● 2310d

Just in case anyone is in any doubt as to what a lying p.o.s Matt Hancock is, on March 20th, he pledged that all social care workers would receive a PPE pack. Well it's now July 7th and my wife's carers have nothing other than what they've sourced and paid for themselves. If this egregious slug is made the fall guy for the government's calamitous handling of this pandemic, I for one will be strapping on my hobnail boots to give him a kicking on the way down.

David Roberts ● 2310d

David, 80% of care rests in the private sector that charges huge money, some residents I believe are already subsided by the tax payer. These care homes/facilities should cover the cost of PPE not the taxpayer, I have no idea of your wife’s situation private or state but the private places make big profits so can easily afford to ensure they have sufficient policies in place to protect the vulnerable people they care for. I as a tax payer do not expect to fund their PPE.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

The blame game is alive and well in Chiswick, let's follow Bozza, when it goes t*ts up it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Vanessa Smith ● 2310d

Vanessa, blame game is immature and totally non productive, our energy should be spent finding workable solutions, taxing a handful of wealthy people is not going to fund the NHS and social care. We are currently 300 billion overspent as a result of covid so we need to find creative ways to move on from this. Seventy years ago the NHS launched with a workforce of around 144,000. Since then, the health service has grown to become the single biggest employer in the UK, with 1.7 million workers across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, making it the fifth-largest workforce in the world. It is so big now that’s it seems impossible to make any changes to improve efficiency. We haven’t even started on social care for the elderly. We need to get real!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2310d

Some people only the know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Vanessa Smith ● 2309d

Exactly. No one seemed overly concerned that our national debt under the Tories doubled to £2trillion in the last ten years.

Stewart Jones ● 2309d

with due respect Jayne i am with Venessa on this one. When in a position of power you are judged by your mistakes which this lot have done in abundance and more concerning is they have blatantly lied to us. It seems we have a Captain more interested in entertaining his guests at the captains dinner while his ship is in the middle of a  hurricane leaving cadet Handcock at the helm. We are all agreed that some serious changes are needed to get this country back on its feet but as long as "these" idiots are at the helm i fear for us all.

James Smith-Jones ● 2309d

We all have our own opinion, the NHS is amazing but we all expect too much and pay very little so either up NI considerably for everyone or we need to find another way to fund the standard of care & service required. No government has done this probably because they are to scared because some people want to keep it as free at point of use. The reality is that we all need to pay more or find chargeable elements of the service based upon usage. It has got too big chucking money at the NHS is not going to solve anything in my opinion.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2309d

If we 'all need to pay more or find chargeable elements of the service based upon usage.' as you so kindly put it, that would impact most on the elderly, those with chronic conditions, and those who need life saving treatment - i.e. those who could least afford to pay. Which actually makes the case that you are against, that we all pay a little more either through tax or N.I.That is the fairest and cheapest way of funding, and it is one of the founding principles that the NHS IS free at point of use - not a carefree whim of someone - a principle.

Vanessa Smith ● 2309d

The elderly are putting a massive strain on all healthcare services because we know have fantastic treatments available. When it was founded after the war it employed 144,000 people and did not offer the range of services it does today. Thankfully there are wealthy older folk who can afford to pay who have generated wealth through their property, final salary pensions. So yes everyone contributes more if you value the service which you say you do. It is totally wrong to expect only the ‘wealth employed’ people to fund a service, you benefit you pay.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2309d

I’ve just told my elderly relatives that they are putting a massive strain on the NHS and that they really weren’t expected to live as long as they have. Is that the message you wanted me to get across?

Stewart Jones ● 2309d

Of course it is not and well you know it.......the point to the discussion is funding. Vanessa seems to think it’s OK for the younger employed generation to fund the NHS, my view everyone should contribute. The younger folk are funding state pensions, NHS, etc by the time they become pensioners there will probably be no state pensions, it’s already 67 not 60. There is no longer final salary pensions either. So if we want to maintain and improve the NHS then everyone should contribute more. I am sure most of the elderly are really concerned about the younger generation being expected to pay more tax and elderly contribute nothing to cover the NHS and social care.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2309d

Of course, I knew what you meant but what you said was very clumsily put and apportions blame.

Stewart Jones ● 2309d

JT > "... elderly contribute nothing to cover the NHS and social care."The 'elderly' contribute in many ways including income tax, VAT, fuel/car duty, alcohol/tobacco duty, insurance premium taxes and council tax.

John Whitworth ● 2309d

And do we really want  to be the kind of society where people or groups of people are only measured by their financial position and if they are massive strain? Actually, I know the answer to that.

Stewart Jones ● 2309d

Stewart apologies if it was clumsy you get the point. John the discussion is about additional funding. Pensioners don’t pay NI which is one way the NHS is funded. Who are all these wealthy employed people that can afford to cover billion of additional funding? my view we all contribute including pensioners who have the funds.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2309d

JT > "Pensioners don’t pay NI which is one way the NHS is funded."NI contributes just 20% of NHS funding (2017/2018 figures). The rest of the funding comes largely from general taxation, with a small amount covered by patient charges (prescriptions, dental, etc).Pensioners are subject to general taxation like everybody else, and thus make a significant contribution to NHS and social care funding.

John Whitworth ● 2309d

'The 'elderly' contribute in many ways including income tax, VAT, fuel/car duty, alcohol/tobacco duty, insurance premium taxes and council tax.'Thank-you John - that was exactly what I was about to point out, just becasue you've retired doesn't mean your contributions stop. What I do think could be done though is, that while you are still working you should carry on on paying NI contributions instead of them stopping at state pension as at present.

Vanessa Smith ● 2309d

Thanks for the clarification, John

Stewart Jones ● 2309d

The question you need to answer is how do we build a system and fund it so that we can look after people. Asking a handful of people to fund it via higher tax is ridiculous and does not solve anything.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2309d

Great so we all agree pensioners should contribute more just like any other tax payer perfect!  The NHS is not free.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2309d

What about those that don't claim the pension credit, could that money be used for the NHS, I understand it's quite a sum of money.

Janice Evans ● 2309d

Yes, and they are no more a ‘massive strain’ than any other group. Glad it’s sorted.

Stewart Jones ● 2308d

No - it is not about pensioners contributing more - because when you no longer have pay NI that extra left in your wages is liable for tax. One way or another we still all pay. What the government need to do is ensure that everyone pays according to their means - which certianly isn't the case at the moment - and most of those people are donors to the Tory party, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Vanessa Smith ● 2308d

National Insurance just goes into the Treasury's coffers.  It isn't ring-fenced for anything.  If you don't earn enough to pay NI then you will not be gain your NI contribution to your state pension.  I think this is probably something that is conveniently missing in announcements that if you are a low earner you don't have to pay NI until you earn a certain amount.There are women who are missing out on receiving extra pension money because they have to actually claim it rather than just getting it with the rest of their pension.

Philippa Bond ● 2308d

"What I do think could be done though is, that while you are still working you should carry on on paying NI contributions instead of them stopping at state pension as at present." I have no problem with people who continue to work to get this small respite when they reach state pension age. It encourages them to keep active and contribute to taxes etc. Dion't forget that their employers still have to pay their NI contributions for 'pensioners' who continue to work. So it's a double whammy for the government. If 'pensioners' stop working, the tax contribution is reduced considerably.

Steve Taylor ● 2308d

PB > "National Insurance just goes into the Treasury's coffers.  It isn't ring-fenced for anything"That is incorrect.NI is paid into the National Insurance Fund."The National Insurance Fund (NIF) holds National Insurance Contributions (NICs), paid by employees, employers and the self-employed. Voluntary contributions are also paid into the fund. Receipts paid into the NIF are kept separate from all other revenue raised by national taxes and are used to pay social security benefits such as contributory benefits and the State Pension."The NIF Account presents the receipts and payments for the financial year, as well as the balance on the Fund at the end of the year."NICs also help finance the National Health Service (NHS). NICs are paid into the NIF net of money allocated to the NHS."Source:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/839411/Great_Britain_National_Insurance_Fund_Account_-_2018_to_2019.pdf

John Whitworth ● 2308d

What is also forgotten where the government collecting money is concerned, is the amount of money estimated to have been lost since some moron had the brainwave to stop issuing tax discs for vehicles - roughly £280 million pounds since 2014! Let's not forget minsters insisted at the time this was done that it would save money and reduce tax evasion - well that worked well didn't it? Eastimated there are 634,000 untaxed vehicles on the roads.

Vanessa Smith ● 2308d

It only pays a small proportion of what is needed for NHS and Pensions and other benefits.  The very large balance needed comes out of general taxation.  Practically speaking  it is just another tax.

Philippa Bond ● 2308d