Forum Topic

Closures of Devonshire Rd and Turnham Green Terrace confirmed plus a 'bonus'

Finally some details of what is actually happening have been released and we don't have to rely on people who claim to be in the know to tell us.My view remains that these closures will displace traffic to junctions where they will cause greater problems than the benefits they deliver. However, it is pointless getting into that discussion as we will find out whether this is the case soon enough.More generally the following is my take on the proposals.1) Widening access to loading bays is a good idea and should mollify businesses worried about lost trade to a degree. Why not extend this to every loading bay in the borough?2) Given that there is nearly always a van from Mackens parked on TGT how will that impact their business?3) The lack of detail about CCTV enforcement is worrying. It can be assumed that the council will want to make up on the lost revenue from parking bays. Will you be able to drive in on spec to TGT and Devonshire Road and load or unload without risk of a fine? What then would stop a resident of the Glebe Estate stopping to pick up a coffee in Tamp and then driving to the end of Devonshire Road to get home by the most direct route? Will businesses be consulted about how CCTV enforcement is done. They clearly believe the revenue from enforcement will be greater than what they currently get from parking and enough to justify the initial capital costs if they are prepared to take the risk of pressing ahead without government funding guaranteed4) There doesn't seem to be any reason for a hold up of a Fishers Lane closure if that's what both councils want to do. Would it be a huge surprise if the dispute was over camera enforcement revenue? This spot is likely to be a goldmine given that lots of motorists will use the underpass by mistake or believing they will get away with it. 5) Duke Road - thought it had already been decided this was a bad idea? Can't see a single benefit it offers. Looks like are trying to sneak it in as an extra with a bonus enforcement camera at the spot to bring in extra revenue.

Paul Corcoran ● 2328d177 Comments

I don't accept that anybody was scaremongering on these matters. There was genuine concern and no details appear to have been shared with the public until the schemes are actually being implemented. If the council operates like this then people are going to expect the worst.I addressed a number of specific questions to Guy Lambert the councillor with portfolio responsibility for these matters on this forum and he did not respond. Any widespread misapprehensions could have been cleared up if he did.At first sight it seems the majority of all the measures that Hounslow have obtained funding for are in Chiswick area.This could mean one of two things 1) they secretly like us more than people elsewhere in the borough even though we didn't vote for them and therefore only we benefit from these measures which will significantly enhance the street scene and environment of our area or 2) they know these measures will be extremely unpopular particularly as the traffic impacts unfold and PCNs start to be issued by all the cameras they are putting in place. They will get a substantial boost to their revenue and won't risk alienating their key areas of support.If it is 2) they will still be roundly supported by a small group of local people who think the closure of any road at any point will always be a good thing and anybody with a nuanced view about likely impacts is a climate denying petrolhead. When jams appear on roads to which traffic is being displaced they will say we need to wait for driver behaviour to adjust, when long established shops in the area close they will blame Brexit or the coronavirus. When after six months these schemes prove to have been very bad ideas by any disinterested measure they will support whatever argument Hounslow is making to maintain them, so dependent they will have become on the extra revenue they enable them to extract from the area.

Francis Rowe ● 2327d

The logic on Fishers Lane is that opening TGT to walking and cyclists will funnel a high volume of traffic to Fishers which is already a bottleneck at the bridge, dangerous for cyclists and leaves insufficent space for social distancing on the single narrow walkway. Closing it to cars will keep north/south traffic to Acton Lane and Goldhawk road where there is more space for the cars and walkers at least. Cyclists will be able to use Fishers Lane. The DfT itself has encouraged these measures and has made it very clear in the foreword to the Traffic Management Act from Rt Hon Grant Shapps that the intention is for these to be long-term changes: "A once in a generation opportunity to deliver a lasting transformative change in how we make journeys in our towns and cities". He talks about the objective to "embed altered behaviours". He is saying that those of us who can should use our cars less for local journeys. The measures make it easier for people with reduced mobility to reach their local amenities through provision of disabled access exemptions and dedicated parking. Francis has not considered in his analysis the possibility that Chiswick residents themselves have been influential in bringing about the focus of the funding on this area. There are many of us who support them. This perspective from an articulate young person than is fresh and instructive for people who are surprised by the level of support. What was once considered a lunatic fringe is now mainstream as new generations of voters think in a different way that chimes with the policy-makers in government. https://chiswickcalendar.co.uk/under-30s-are-a-car-free-zone/

Paul Campbell ● 2327d

Just to address some points raisedGuy Lambert as I understand it does have cabinet responsibility for the Environment which I presume is relevant here but, yes, he is not specifically responsible for transport. However, he was commenting on it and I asked him some questions and answers came there none.I have not nor ever have been a member of the Conservative party. Just to remove any doubt I believe Boris Johnson is totally unfit to run the country and am increasingly convinced that even a Jeremy Corbyn government would have done a better job that the corrupt incompetents in charge at the moment. Don't see that political affiliation is relevant anyway. I don't know which point is believed to have come from a Tory party leaflet but I don't rule out the possibility that I spoke to a member of the party who told me this was going to happen. Hence me asking the question which was never answered.As for the Labour party in Hounslow wanting to launch another assault on the Chiswick seats in the next local elections, I think that is naive. There are hard times ahead and pain is going to have to be taken - incumbent councillors will be very keen that the pain is taken somewhere other than their ward.Here is another question which if it isn't on a Tory leaflet should be - how many of the projects for which funding has been announced have a revenue raising component e.g. a traffic camera and what proportion are in Chiswick? In the absence of an answer I'm going for 'very high'.

Francis Rowe ● 2327d

Just to clear up a few points: - Richard is quite right - traffic is Hanif's portfolio, not mine, though I have been closely engaged with these plans. - Revenue-raising has not once been discussed to my knowledge. Indeed, taking out paid parking is very likely to have the opposite effect. These changes are about trying to keep the area livable at a time when there is every likelihood traffic volumes will increase beyond their level before the lockdown. In fact, from what I've seen, in some areas they already have- The changes are not confined to Chiswick. School streets for example are going in across the borough. Parking has been taken out in Hounslow West. We are closing off shortcuts in Brentford. Providing more space for walking and cycling in many places, including around W.Middx hospital. The changes have been very largely driven by responses to the continuing (until 26 June) consultation https://haveyoursay.hounslow.gov.uk/traffic-and-transport/streetspace/ - The proposals have been thought up very quickly (I exclude S Chiswick livable neighbourhoods which has been in consultation and design for many months after LBH won funding last year) so even those somewhat 'in the know' - I include myself in that - did not have details at our fingertips because designs were still being thought through and changing. This was an inevitable result of the DfT's instruction to bring forward proposals 'within weeks' - Given the necessary haste in designing and implementing these plans it is highly likely that flaws will emerge in places. For example, talking to traders on Devonshire road today there was a concern expressed that there may not be enough space for loading. If that turns out to be correct, the beauty of an experimental scheme is that it is not set in concrete (pun intended).I have tried to engage here as much as I can, because I know Chiswick very well, having lived there for 30-odd years and still being a frequent visitor. There were some wild rumours earlier which scared a lot of people far more than was appropriate and I was keen to inform as best as I could.

Guy Lambert ● 2327d

Guy, this 'wild rumours' nonsense has got to stop. The way that Hounslow is communicating these changes is appalling and inevitably people will speculate if they are not told what is planned in a timely manner.I'm quite happy to accept your assurances that these measures aren't primarily revenue driven. Despite not being a residents of Brentford I read your weekly updates regularly and find them amusing and informative and clearly written by someone who is committed to the welfare of all borough residents.The poor communication and lack of transparency about these measures may not be the sign that there is something to hide but it does create the wrong impression. For instance the article currently on the front page states that a request for the specific details of each project that has gained TfL funding was denied. How can this be justified?As you know Chiswick well you will know that when CPZs were first introduced they were presented as a real boon for the environment and a way of discouraging cars but they were brought in with much greater enthusiasm by Hounslow Council than elsewhere in the borough while Chiswick residents were charge a substantial premium to park.There will, as a consequence, always be a suspicion among longer term residents that Chiswick will be used as a cash cow. I am quite happy to take your assurances that it isn't on good faith but it might help reassure others if you were to confirm the amount of revenue raised from all newly installed cameras should be made public at the end of any trial period and if continuance was being advocated the budgeted revenue from these cameras should be disclosed. Is that something the council would be willing to do?

Francis Rowe ● 2326d

Guy, you might not have discussed revenue raising but I can't believe others haven't.  Not sure what you have found out to back up your assertion that "taking out paid parking is very likely to have the opposite effect" because it doesn't stack up with what I, as an opposition councillor, have been told. Perhaps you aren't asking the right questions - or talking to the right people. Your leader told me, last year when he and I met on the High Road, that parking revenue from shopping spaces in central Chiswick is "trivial". In relation to Devonshire Road and Turnham Green Terrace, an officer told me that losing the parking spaces would not have an impact on revenue because so many people use the free 30 minute stop and shop option. So we are starting from a very low base.  However, and this is the point about the new proposals, with CCTV ANPR cameras issuing fines to anyone who drives along either TGT or Devonshire Road without knowing the rules (including unsuspecting delivery drivers, often on low incomes), or who can't find a loading bay to stop in and has to travel on, revenue is likely to increase hugely. Locals will be fined for trying to stop to drop off/pick up from the shops but not being able to, then going round the houses to try again or back to their homes in Chiswick (including in Ealing's Southfield ward which is just as much a part of Chiswick as the three Hounslow wards). These residents in cars, or the delivery vans going to residents' homes, are not through traffic but will be treated as through traffic. Flash goes the ANPR camera. Out goes the fine. In comes the money. Don't believe me? Here's the news from Orford Road, the road most used by people who cycle as the model for these schemes. In its first four years, the council received £2,777,319. Traders there say that is £86.10 an hour. The money was collected by a third party which took a fee/percentage so the total raised was higher. And nobody has discussed this in Hounslow House? Government guidance said councils should consult - especially businesses affected. There has been none of that. Indeed, some of them have still not had the three sided letter, with its unclear explanations of what has already happened and will come. You say you have tried to engage here as much as you can. With whom? Not with your fellow councillors who know the area and how traffic flow works and who can introduce you to residents and traders. Not with any traders I've spoken with or been in touch with. Perhaps you talked with the residents who want these schemes? After all, the Devonshire Road scheme has been on their and the council's wishlist since at least 2017.  You've had nearly three years to consult on that. There were no wild rumours. There was a lack of information. Later, long after the online questionnaire was posted, there was one briefing, offered to me and another councillor, and a few minutes after that briefing we were shocked to read an article here on CW4 that gave us more information than we had been given in the briefing. One and a half hours of MSTeams powerpoint charts didn't convey all the information published in a short press statement sent before that briefing took place. Even then, facts were scarce. You - if not personally given your tangential portfolio, your cllr chums and officers - have had many chances to provide information. Instead it has dribbled out incoherently, much like the unclear signs at the entrance to Devonshire Road. If this is you or others being "keen to inform as best [you] could" it's very far from award-winning.

Joanna Biddolph ● 2325d

Happy to reply but based on the fact that Chiswick councillors haven't been told any more than was in the letters residents have been sent (mine only arrived, by post, today dated 8th June). As far as we know, you are right. Turning into Prince of Wales Terrace is allowed. Cllr Guy Lambert has his car serviced there. If you go straight down to the end of the shops without stopping to drop off/pick up as a customer or as a trade supplier/buyer, we understand that, yes, that is an offence and you will be fined. So, if there isn't a free loading bay you'll need to hover but for how long is, currently, anyone's guess. Perhaps the rules will be publicised when the ANPR cameras go in. As for fathoming out what we can and cannot do because the messages on the signs are so opaque, the traders have asked for clearer signs because it is absolutely the case that the current signs do not make it clear that shoppers can go down there, park in a loading bay for up to 20 minutes, then leave. However, LBH sent a very swift response to their request saying that the signs are legal and will not be changed. A second reason is that there is a limit to the size of the post that the planters can support. A third is that there are limits to the number of words that can be on statutory signage. Glad to know it's all fit for purpose. Not to mention the fact that the plants will grow to obscure the wording on these unhelpful signs making it even more likely that people will turn down, not know about the hovering option, and be fined. Higher up in this stream I revealed that the ANPR cameras if Orford Road, the flagship example of this kind of scheme, earned Waltham Forest council £2.7m in the first four years (given that it is operated by a third party, the revenue raised from people making a mistake was considerably more). You will I hope not be surprised to know that we are pushing back on the unhelpful but legal signs point (having already raised the soon-to-be-obscuring plants point). The road was bleakly free of shoppers today so this is a plea for locals to take their turns at the loading bays - without blocking traders who need to use them to deliver/collect goods - because if they can't stop they will carry on through and after a fine or two will give up supplying/buying from our shops and that also spells the end of their businesses. It's a good plan, isn't it. I can see the road being permanently backed up with cars hovering to take up enough minutes to avoid a fine.  That will also put off the trade suppliers/buyers who will - see above point. If Cllr Guy Lambert's comment proves to be true - that LBH will adjust the loading bay numbers - he might as well reinstate the eight parking spaces used by residents to do a free 30 minute stop and shop that are currently keeping our hard-working independents in business.  It's been very well thought-through, hasn't it. You'd never believe that the scheme has been on officers' and councillors' desks since since 2017. Three years in the making and it's still, as you say, a recipe for confusion.

Joanna Biddolph ● 2323d

Paul,No need to throw your toys out of the pram.  If you don't like my posts you don't need to read them.You haven't addressed the point which is, what is the problem with Devonshire Rd as a north-south route cycle route?  Devonshire Rd was originally a two way road, then it was closed to stop northbound rat running traffic. The response was always that there couldn't be two-way cycling because there wasn't enough space because of car parking.Create more space by removing car parking and voila, two way cycling.Cllr Biddolph said numerous times that there should be more north-south routes, without, of course, mentioning what they should be.  I look forward to her support for Devonshire Rd.Regarding the A4 crossing at Sutton Court Rd, you say "I note that neither TFL or LBH seem to have anything to say there..."You haven't looked very hard then.  There is information about this in the South Chiswick Liveable Neighbourhood website.It says LBH and TfL  are looking at a temporary cycle lane for Sutton Court Rd / A4 (as well as Hartington Rd / A316).I know that Hounslow have also commissioned a redesign of the Sutton Court Rd / A4 junction but as this would involve construction, there is no funding for this type of project at the moment so it will need to wait.I haven't seen the proposed redesign yet.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the measures proposed would be closing Sutton Lane N, maybe near the roundabout with Barrowgate Rd, after the Porsche garage,  That would have benefits for the residents of Barrowgate Rd, simplify the SCR junction as there wouldn't be cars trying to turn right there and make a cycle route safer, again, because there wouldn't be cars trying to turn right there.Of course, it would mean people going to Grove Park on the eastbound A4 would need to go via the Hogarth roundabout.I'd hope that you and Cllr Biddolph would support this as another north-south cycle route.

Michael Robinson ● 2322d

Guy, please stop playing silly games and pushing out malicious nonsense. There was secrecy and Chiswick councillors were not informed until the plans were already set. Our constructive responses were ignored. Just as residents' and traders' comments are being ignored. There was no fantasy or malice in my response to questions about Prince of Wales Terrace - I said I didn't know because ... I didn't know. And nor did you when you joined in. On that basis, when you said you didn't know, were you also indulging in nonsense, silly fantasy and pure malice?  The fact is that communication about the changes has been shockingly poor. Even you, cabinet member for highways, didn't have answers. And before you say, again, that you are only tagentially involved, you chose to comment on here in place of Cllr Hanif Khan, the cabinet member who is directly involved. Why isn't he answering questions on here? Surely he must have all the answers.  The three sided letter was delivered very late giving the very strong impression that telling residents - not consulting, despite the government saying you should consult - was an afterthought. Residents and business owners - who we were elected to represent - are an afterthought. It's incredible. So is the fact that the content of that letter isn't clear - as questions in this and other discussions show. The whole thing was a race for cash with no regard for the people who would be most affected by the scheme which, in Devonshire Road, has nothing to do with social distancing; nothing to do with tackling a rat run because it isn't one; and nothing to do with supporting traders after a prolonged period of enforced closure.I care about the ward I represent and the people who live in or do business in it. I care about all our independent businesses and their futures because they make Chiswick desirable, they give it difference and they sell what we want to buy. It is breathtakingly shocking that LBH doesn't care and that your contribution to this discussion, on behalf of LBH, is to peddle nonsense, silly fantasy and pure malice about your political opponents.

Joanna Biddolph ● 2322d

To MichaelFirstly, of course the classification of a road is relevant to 'rat running'. As widely understood, and as seems to be the target in Grove Park, rat running is using residential streets as short cuts. The story on the front page here calls out that this: 'Traffic Neighbourhood schemes in which access is restricted to residential roads in an effort to reduce rat-running'TGT is a clearly designated 'B' road, and is therefore expected to carry a fair volume of traffic, including through traffic. It is NOT a residential road by any definition, and its perfectly legitimate for 'through' traffic to use. If we are going to close every B road across the country to 'through' traffic I think we would see many people struggling to reach legitimate destinations and near gridlock on the roads. With buses, delivery traffic and local traffic still in place, as well as shoppers using loading bays, I fail to see how TGT will be safer for cycling than it was before. More sensible would be to leave TGT open and if necessary close Fishers Lane, so immediately a safer route under the tube lines opens up for cyclists. How about that?Remember Michael, I was a regular cyclists, many of my friends and family are. If you are representative of the cycling lobby at this point, be careful of alienating those that are broadly sympathetic with your aggressive and repetitive posts. There are many other streets that are residential around Chiswick, I can think of Barrowgate, Heathfield Terrace and the length of Sutton Crt north of the A4, that see very large traffic flows. So where is the grand design, the logic? What indeed is the objective of the announced closures, other than grabbing a bit of cash that is available and rushing to do implement whatever comes to mind.To Paul Campbell: there is a difference between allocating road sapce away from cars and to walking and cycling, which I see being down across W4 and indeed many other areas, and actually closing main roads. THe latter I dont believe is part of govnt policy.

Paul Green ● 2322d

Paul,The official significance of A and B road designation was ended some time ago and now they are just a label. I’ll see if I can find the documentation for this. I think it was in the 90s or early 00s.Wellesley Rd is the A3000 and there has just been a couple of planters plonked on it to close it completely to motor vehicles.I don’t know if the A3000 label will still remain or if the council needs to do some paperwork to “delete” it.My understanding is the primary purpose of the measures on TGT is reallocation of road space for pedestrians. It isn’t a cycling scheme although in general less traffic means more pleasant cycling. Reallocation of road space for pedestrians is a stated government policy.I don’t think you should have too much faith in “grand plans”. Firstly because time, money and resources are limited, there is only so much that can be done at one time.  Secondly, there us always an element of unpredictability with traffic schemes, so doing something, then doing something more is a good approach.As an example, there is no certainty about the level of displaced traffic with the Wellesley Rd closure. The council will have a view of what could be done if it proves to be an issue on roads like Oxford Rd N but there is no point doing it unless there is evidence of a problem.For Sutton Court Rd, Barrowgate Rd etc, I know the council has commissioned a redesign of the SCR/A4 junction. It would require construction so there is no money for it under current funding arrangements. Maybe there will be next year, don’t know. I haven’t seen a design but my guess is they may look to close Sutton Lane N so that would address traffic along the west bit of Barrowgate Rd, for example. That is just a guess.

Michael Robinson ● 2322d

Paul,If you don't want your postings picked over, then why bother posting at all?  I would have thought you would be grateful that I am spending time to read them and comment.If you'd prefer me to ignore you and put Paul Green in the "don't bother reading" category, then happy to oblige.  You are more than welcome to do the same to me.Again you keep on making the mistake of trying to argue with me while really you should be arguing with Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP.It isn't me who is providing funding to local authorities with requirement like:"The government therefore expects local authorities to make significant changes to their road layouts to give more space to cyclists and pedestrians.""Local authorities in areas with high levels of public transport use should take measures to reallocate road space to people walking and cycling""To receive any money under this or future tranches, boroughs and TfL will need to satisfy the Department that there are swift and meaningful plans in place to reallocate road space to cyclists and pedestrians, including on strategic corridors.The quickest and cheapest way of achieving this will normally be point closures. These can be of certain main roads (with exceptions for buses, access and for disabled people, and with other main roads kept free for through motor traffic); or of parallel side streets, if sufficiently direct to provide alternatives to the main road. Point closures can also be used to create low-traffic filtered neighbourhoods."There, the government has said closing main roads is OK.

Michael Robinson ● 2321d