Forum Topic

Over 500 people commented on changes to traffic in Grove Park. There were more than 600 comments and more than 3000 agreements to those comments. Nearly 80% of the comments came from Grove Park residents including me. Nearly 60% of the respondents were female. The number one issue raised was safety and the biggest request for improvement was reduction in traffic volume. The residents of Burnaby Gardens are using the latest Streetspace survey to beg the Council to stop through traffic. Hardly anybody mentioned the new paving by the shops because there are far more pressing matters.There is consultation. The government has issued statutory guidance to implement temporary measures immediately and then consult to determine the future of those measures. The government has decided that it is better to comment on what is happening than what different people imagine will happen.If the Riverside Councillors say that they think there should be a consultation before the temporary measures then they are either unaware of their government’s statutory guidance or they are being deliberately disingenuous.Who in the area wants vehicles driving down Staveley Road at 40mph+ when they are on their way to Chiswick House? Who wants 8000 cars a day using Cavendish, Hartington, Grove Park Road and Grove Park Bridge to access Sutton Court Road? Who want cars tearing past the schools on Grove Park Terrace and Burnaby Gardens to avoid the lights at Sutton Court Road? Signing this petition is putting your hand up for all of these things.

Paul Campbell ● 2337d

Hi James (and I hope you are well). First off  - what Grove Park Group? I used to pay a sub, but their website hasn't been updated since 2017 as far as I can see.  I haven't heard from them for years and I assumed (reasonably) that it was moribund. You are the first poster to mention walking and cycling (which I believe to be the real agenda behind this — and not a care for 'overburdened' streets). I mostly use my Brompton, and drive less and less. As things stand, I can get by bike to Hammersmith easily (the Park and the Mall), CHR (the underpasses and side streets). I just do not begin to see how I am helped as a walker or cyclist by this. What I hugely resent is our small neighbourhood becoming a giant cul-de-sac by external fiat, without our say-so, and in response to no  felt need on the part of those of us who live here.
As to the consultations, why would I pay attention to a consultation whose headline was the Grove Park Shops? I was pleased they were doing it, but it really didn't seem to affect me, and I felt no need to get involved. For many of my neighbours in north GP this was the perceived reality. There was no sense of any implication for us. In little over 12 hours 325 people have signed my neighbour's petition against these utterly misconceived proposals. They clearly feel, as I do, that there is a well understood way of carrying out local consultations — and that it is just not right that the traffic department should have acted as it did in this case.

Brendan McCarthy ● 2337d

Hi Paul,We have both been involved in the discussion on the Nextdoor community website on this topic. There has been over 100 comments on that forum and you have been very responsive and active, engaging to share your own views and help others with understanding these proposed fast-tracked changes to traffic routes across Grove Park / South Chiswick. In the 24 hours that this debate has progressed and in light of all the information shared, over 500 residents from Grove Park have now signed the petition calling for a more thorough public consultation to understand and contribute to these proposed widespread changes. To put this in context, in one day, more residents have signed the petition than the number of people even first included in the survey and public consultation ahead of these changes to South Chiswick being proposed. This is surely significant in illustrating a. how poorly the residents were first consulted and b. how much further these proposed fast-tracked changes go than were initially expected or discussed.The petition itself cites wanting to reduce traffic and not to stop changes, however the majority of residents living in South Chiswick enjoy living in South Chiswick. There is a strong feeling that these proposed fast-tracked measures will negatively impact the residents themselves. The argument for not allowing a public consultation is that we "might" miss the window for funding of the proposed changes. The residents I speak to and who have signed the petition are prepared to take that risk in the face of these proposed fast-tracked changes. My own suspicion is traffic calming inititivies will remain a priority in the future and investment will be made available.To your point on the government changing the process a few weeks ago to implement and then consult, I accept that. You also know my view that the six month consultation period will fall within an artificually low period of traffic volume as so few cars are currently on the roads compared to when the traffic data was collected in 2019. Offices are not going to be fully staffed until into 2021.

Henry Man ● 2336d

Also just posted to Nextdoor website - I have been an active member of this debate since finding out about the proposed fast-tracked changes to Grove Park just this week.I wanted to remind residents and members of both sides of this debate that the petition that has been created welcomes change to the area in the pursuit of calmer and safer streets, better cycling facilities etc. The petition represents a viewpoint that is not about stopping change but making sure the change is sensible and benefits and not detriments the neighbourhood as a whole. In 24 hours the petition has received signatures from more residents than were first consulted ahead of these fast-tracked traffic changes being proposed. This is surely significant in illustrating a. how poorly the residents were first consulted and b. how much further these proposed fast-tracked changes go than were initially expected or discussed.The argument proposed for not welcoming a better consultation with residents of Grove Park ahead of these changes is the possibility of missing out on this government funding round. My personal view is traffic calming initiatives and those that encourage safer cycling etc will remain a priority for this and future governments.I believe we are all on the same side and all members of this debate would welcome traffic and safety improvements to the neighbourhood that are better thought out and executed. Is there a way we could fast track concerns of these proposed fast-tracked changes to make some small but significant improvements to the proposals?!Simple examples (my own opinion only)1. Publish the proposed hours that the school streets will be restricted to traffic each day – I cannot find this anywhere and it is surely a fundamental detail of the proposals?2. Extend the consultation period to 12 months from 6 months in light of the artificially low levels of traffic because of Covid-19 for the foreseeable future3. Provide access to all Grove Park registered residents’ cars via the ANPR (car number plate recognition) systems proposed for Hartlington and Thames Roads etc. The current proposals allow only those residents living south of the railway line to access Thames Road and Hartlinton Roads etc. If Hartlington Road is used to 8000 cars a day under normal conditions, surely a few hundred more registered vehicles from the Grove Park’s residents north of the railway line will be hardly noticed in light of several thousand rat-runners being eliminated?!4. Introduce the same ANPR to residents of Grove Park to access Harvard Hill to the A4 west bound. Same argument as above, surely the removal of thousands of rat-runners leaving a few hundred locals to use that route would be welcomed by all residents?5. Propose measures to restrict the new rat-run routes that will be created on Elmwood Rd, Park Road etc.6. Implement speed cameras on roads that are deemed to be dangerous. Staveley? I am unaware of the process to implement changes to the proposals. Can anyone shed light on whether we could come up with some realistic changes that would satisfy most concerns that could be implemented quickly and not miss this funding window?

Henry Man ● 2336d

Hi James. Glad you're well :) Your post is really interesting. Most of us probably have different cognitive maps of Grove Park, Mine is the Fauconberg FR CPZ area, the station, SCR north of the railway, the Park — with occasional forays to SOTG and Hammersmith. But yes — where we live, it is inevitable that we will be strongly oriented across the A4 to the other side of Chiswick, from which these proposals will increasingly cut us off. And this is a problem: it is dangerous to over-emphasise the idea of 'Grove Park'. We don't all see the neighbourhood the same way. You know my background. So if I missed out on what was going on, and if the almost 600 people who signed the petition also missed out on what was going on, it raises — at very least — a question about how well this was all communicated. I honestly thought it was about the Grove Park shops — and it now seems that even this has fallen away.
It is clear that this project doesn't need to be railroaded. The only reason to do so would be to meet a deadline for an unexpected source of government funding deadline. It may have merits. But it needs to be thoroughly  discussed, because it will reshape our daily lives. The other extraordinary thing is that, if this is all about walking and cycling, how little cyling is actually discussed in the report. Yes the word 'cycling' occurs 102 times. But look further and you will find nothing substantive. The report reads as it it was reverse-engineered at a late stage, dotting it with the words 'and cycling' here and there to window-dress it for a funding application
I mostly cycle now (though I identify little with cycling advocacy groups) — and if I thought about it, I'm sure I'd have things to say about how cycling could be improved in GP. But was this what the report was about? What have I missed? As to how we expect to be consulted, the models we know are the CPZ and CS9 consultations. I'd have expected a meeting in St Michael's Elmwood Road and an Area Forum dedicated to the topic. I'd have expected people with questionnaires on Fauconberg Road, a tent on the sidewalk, just as there was on CHR when the CS9 consultation was happening. So we know the CS9 and CPZ models of consultation — very clear and open and you couldn't miss them. But this is not what happened. And this adds to the sense that this is deeply undemocratic. A project that redraws our daily lives so dramatically demands sensitivity. And there is none of that here.

Brendan McCarthy ● 2336d

There appear to have been some reasonable points made on both sides. However, of concern and not being properly addressed (that I can find) are1) Pollution. Maybe this is implicit in what has been suggested. However, all diverted traffic will inevitably be slowed up elsewhere thus leading to additional pollution there. To take a couple of examples.... A reduction in the use of rat runs will lead to more traffic being diverted onto Sutton Court Road and possibly other rat runs (if I have understood the recommendations properly). What guesstimate of incremental traffic is being made and what therefore will be the increase in pollution? 2) Implementation of temporary measures is fine. However, will any recommended changes after the 6 month period also be tested for 6 months? 3) The way this is being done reminds me of the implementation of the CPZ in Grove Park... "Er, we'll do it and review it. Looks like the implementation worked as we thought it would so we'll extend it as the benefits are bound to be extended."The result is that we now have a CPZ in all of Grove Park despite an initial (resident run) survey in 2011 showing that over 90% of responders didn't want it. Your view may now be that the CPZ was and is a good thing and that's fine. However, what it showed was that once something is implemented there is little (no?) likelihood of change. The reason therefore for the consultation is so that residents feel they have had their input and that whatever gets implemented will be, at least in part, something they want.

John Hickman ● 2336d

MichaelI agree that reducing the number of cars on the road reduces pollution. As you say, the lockdown demonstrated (and continues to demonstrate) this. If I was looking for benefits from the lockdown, this and the lack of airplanes would be very high on my list.The time round Hogarth roundabout may not be high at the moment but that is down to the lockdown and cars taking ratruns. If the number of cars increases back to "normal" after the lockdown and the ratruns are also restricted I think you will find that Google times (at best only indicative, at worst completely wrong as I've found to my own cost on occasion) will increase.I think you will also find that slowed (to crawling speed) traffic and also traffic that is stationery most of the time is more polluting, as well as there being more cars in a given area for a longer time. (And, Yes, I am taking into account the fact that newer cars these days switch the ignition off when they are stationery. Sadly, each time they start they offset to a degree the pollution they've saved by being switched off. I confess this statement is based on how cars used to be but I have seen nothing that says the principle has changed in the meantime. If you can point me at something I will gladly read it).Although I agree with your "point of principle" for reasons of safety and pollution on local streets I am not sure to what degree it really holds up. It is clearly more complicated when one considers it. I go back to the implementation of the Grove Park CPZ. One of the alleged benefits was a clearer view (for drivers) of the pavements and concomitant increase in safety for pedestrians.Actually, (some, almost all) cars now drive faster down residential roads as they have a clearer view of the pavements. (Prior to the CPZ implementation, they drove slower because the roads were narrower due to the parked cars and they couldn't see so well. Forget the 20MPH speed limit, I can't remember the last time I saw a car adhering to it although I am in favour of it).  Perhaps this last point is an argument for this plan. If so, good but I'd prefer implementation of something in residential streets to force drivers to slow down to reasonable speeds. Thank you for answering my question about experimental traffic orders. That seems to only realistically allow some minor adaptions to the original order as I cannot see the council moving swiftly enough to permit more.Basically, this leads to a recommendation for a meeting to address people's concerns in more detail rather than having to hack through different comments on different threads. That way, we are more likely to get people's agreements on what is going to be tried out and therefore to obviate the need for a further trial (no matter how unlikely that is).

John Hickman ● 2335d

I agree with Samantha. As to comparisons made by Michael Robinson with the Stile Hall area, unlike Stile Hall, our access to CHR and the rest of Chiswick is already circumscribed by the A4 and the railway lines. The new scheme would make our links to the rest of Chiswick immensely worse. In its enthusiasm to deal with the issue of 'through traffic', the report utterly ignores the human aspect —  how we who live here actually live our daily lives. The report adopts a crude engineering approach. It completely misses out on our daily social realities. The crashing lack of sensitivity is just breathtaking. It is very clear that the proposals rest on poor research. The fact that the research was being carried out at all was not communicated to the residents of GP/SOTG. And when we were eventually told about the research, it landed very badly (not surprisingly given how we found out). When I last looked, 813 people have signed the petition, and there are many more comments in the thread underneath it. These are reflected in virtually every comment I've heard from neighbours. Here's the link again.
https://www.change.org/p/hounslow-council-south-chiswick-traffic-measures A massive majority of us in GP are completely opposed to these measures and are determined not to have them imposed on us. The next question for us is how we oppose it if the Council doesn't back off  and tries to impose this misguided scheme. Do not believe the guff about 'pilot scheme'. Once this happens, it won't go away.
There is a conversation to be had about traffic here. But it can only begin when LBH starts to treat us with some respect and takes this report off the table.

Brendan McCarthy ● 2333d

"I have read that the Chiswick councillors are unhappy about Hounslow’s plans, yet they seem incapable of stopping them. Surely the councillors should be acting on behalf of the residents."Speaking on behalf of my colleagues Mike Denniss and Gabriella Giles. Firstly we will be issuing an open letter tommorow (or soon after) to Hanif Khan the Cllr responsible to for Transport in Hounslow's Labour Administration Secondly we engaged closely with officers running the initial fact finding exercise in late 2019. The council advertising for the public workshops held in the ward was so poor that we as an emergency measure printed and delivered  several hundred leaflets in the ward advertising the events. We also posted details on social media.Thirdly Officers shared with us a draft of their report on the initial fact finding and their proposals. We responded in detail to all elements and to be fair some of our suggestions were taken on board.When the official announcement was made detail was included that we had not previously been shown - and the devil is in the detail.Fourthly, We have subsequently had a virtual meeting with traffic officers and more are in the diary. We also participated in a virtual meeting that officers held with another group.As representives of the opposition group of Hounslow Council we cannot stop any scheme being implemented - but neither could councillors representing the majority party if the Hounslow Cabinet Member responsible and Officers were supporting the scheme. Using our local knowledge and by being actively engaged we are able to present logical arguments and cost effective solutions to the decision makers. In this way we expect/hope to achieve meaningful modifications to what is proposed.We are also seeking a proper consultation before implmentations begins - many key elements cannot be implemented until September. We have also of course been very busy answering emails and talking to concerned residents.

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 2333d

As I have already said to Bernard I have no affiliation to any group so I cannot declare one like Michael Robinson. I am not a member of Hounslow Cycling. I am a resident living around the corner from you with two kids at Grove Park School and I am very keen to stop the 1500 cars per day using `Harvard Hill and to implement the Grove Park Terrace school street so that my wife and I are not running the gauntlet of speeding drivers to cross from St Mary’s Grove to the school. I also want to be able to go with my family to Chiswick House and `Grounds on our bikes without contending with drivers doing 40mph+ on Staveley Road. I’d like to be able to cross from Grove Park Gardens to the shops without a car every couple of second flying over Grove Park Bridge.I have repeatedly stated that I agree with other residents’ wish to see if there can be an area-wide ANPR. I have said that I have serious doubts about the remaining open access to Burlington Lane making that a dangerous rat run funnelling all the through traffic past the school so Bernard is incorrect in his assessment that I am just blindly cheerleading the scheme.What this boils down to is that Bernard is upset that he will have to take a one mile detour as his is one of the cars people like me do not want cutting through our residential and school streets. He has decided that his need is greater than mine and I disagree with him. He has some other concerns for his local area that I agree with and the solutions to those will also involve reducing traffic movements.There is a small group of people who believe that any effort to change Chiswick for the better is driven by what they call the “cycling fraternity” when they are being polite in public. They are conspiracy theorists who will never be able to accept that reducing speeding traffic is good for residential and shopping streets. They are recruiting people like Bernard to their cause to block any change. No doubt you are also now on their recruitment list. I am sure that you will find it as frustrating an experience as everybody else in Chiswick who has given them so much of their time over the last few years to no avail. They haven’t worked out yet that the forces of change go well beyond an annoying resident like me or a local cycling group like that of Michael Robinson even though the government has declared its hand very firmly on the matter.

Paul Campbell ● 2332d

October 30, 2014 Residents opposed to Network Rail proposal for Grove Park Terrace Local people in Grove Park have warned that a proposal by Network Rail to close the widely-used level crossing at Grove Park Terrace, would have a "hugely negative" impact on the local community and would deny access to local schools and shops to motorists.The company says it may close the crossing as part of its overall plan to shut down 500 crossings in the UK "for safety reasons.A Network Rail spokesperson said: “Over the next five years we’ll be investing more than £100m across Britain to improve safety at level crossings. As part of this, we have committed to close a further 500 crossings, in addition to more than 800 closed over the last five years.“Grove Park Terrace crossing in Chiswick is a crossing we have identified for potential closure, however it is still early days and no specific plans have been developed. We want to ensure that whatever solution is proposed for the crossing is right for this particular location and the people who live and work in the area."http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=groveparklevelcrossing001.htmThis Closure never happened, but move forward to 2020, surely this would have suited the now residents of St Marys Grove, Burnaby Gardens, Burnaby Crescent, Grove Park Terrace and Fauconberg Road plus the rest of the roads in the area.Maybe a lot of the residents of 2014 have moved out, otherwise they would have agreed with the closure.River View Grove was close off from Grove Park Terrace because of the frequent accidents at the cross roads. One house had its wall knocked down so many times, I think they had a builder on a retainer to rebuild it again.But the final fatal accident, when a police man on a motor bike was in collision with a car at that cross road was the reason that road was closed off.  I can understand that road closure, but some of the measures in 2020 haven't had frequent accidents, but are beaning put in place for safety reasons. As far as air pollution goes, I think the major roads around the area in theory could be down to an idling speed and the traffic congestion could increase the pollution in the area.

Bernard Allen ● 2332d

"people from outside the area have signed it and left comments under their names and they include notorious anti-cycling campaigners who are well known to the Council."I have already made the comment that people outside the area (affected) should not have a say. Whether they are for or against cycling is not germane to this discussion. I am following the traditional democratic process and have already talked to Gabriella Giles. "Residents will have their opportunity to raise objections during the ETO trial as outlined in the Traffic Management Act Covid-19 legislation."They may well do but, as I've noted elsewhere temporary implementations tend to become permanent with little or no change. There are all sorts of reasons for this, not least of which is that people/public bodies do not want to be seen to reverse decisions on which they have spent money. That would be seen to be a waste/weakness."If you think that government by plebiscite is better then our democratic system in this country then perhaps you could set up a petition on change.org."Don't think I haven't thought of this (though of course a plebiscite is not binding). Certainly our FPTP democratic (??) system is not fit for purpose. Any decent democratic system would involve proportional representation though not of the sort we were given the option of at the last vote. My view is that we were given this particular option to ensure we voted against it. Both Labour and Conservatives didn't want to see the chances of power disappear.Can you name the last time the winning party in an election actually won the majority of the vote?It was the National Government formed in 1931. They got 67% of the vote and 554 seats (out of 615). Of this, the Tories got 55% of the vote and 470 seats. (Source Wikipedia).As a final note, you say you are against people from outside the area having a say in this, yet you appear to be pro-democracy. Democracy has elected a Labour borough which means that people sitting in Hounslow control what happens in Chiswick, despite local people (potentially) being against it. This position would seem to be inconsistent....

John Hickman ● 2327d