Forum Topic

14,000 deaths and counting

It seems that the UK is heading for a very high death rate. When this is all over surely a Public Enquiry will be necessary? Or is there a quicker way of assessing how the crisis has been handled overall and to learn lessons for the future?

Stewart Jones ● 2392d144 Comments

You're damn right there will be a Public Enquiry, Stewart. And as someone who's voted Tory in every election since the '60s (but not 2019, because I was so disgusted with the lot of them that I  drew line illustrations of steaming dog turds aginst the name of every candidate on my postal voting card), I hope (I am sure) they will be kicked out as the useless, dissembling criminal bastards that they are.What they have done to this country and the way they have treated the NHS and all essential workers is a total disgrace.Instead of joiniing the public acclamation of NHS staffers at my front door every Thursday night, I disappear into my back garden, drop my trousers and point my bare arse in the general direction of Downing Street. My life has been saved four times by the brilliant NHS; I love them to bits; and I'm sure that if those who looked after me could see me doing this they would appreciate why I was doing it (and be laughing at what the coppers would be saying if they were flying a drone camera over the Glebe Estate).

Roger Talbot ● 2392d

With the exception of Germany, which records deaths differently, the evidence so far suggests we will have a per capita death rate broadly similar to France (depending on deaths in care homes), less than Italy and a lot less than Spain despite the fact that particularly in England population density is a lot lower than those countries.  Infections and deaths appear to have peaked but we do not yet know how long and how severe the down swing of the bell curve will be, it is anticipated that it will follow other countries but until it happens no one can be certain.Once the epidemic is over of course we need a full public enquiry but we also need to learn from other countries - but with the caveat that not all solutions adopted in other countries are applicable to the UK, mostly because we are a democracy not an authoritarian regime

Justin Stephenson ● 2392d

Sorry, I sure of course said England has a population density a lot higher (not lower) than France, Spain and Italy!

Justin Stephenson ● 2392d

I agree.The government's response to this crisis has been nothing but criminal.

Chris Davies ● 2392d

Perhaps we ought to look at our overall healthiness. The NHS has been under a lot of pressure even before this problem, with obesity, diabetes and heart conditions which, in some cases, could have been avoided by better lifestyles. These conditions lead to a more severe Coronavirus illness.  Junk food is cheap and filling, but not very good for you. So many do not have the time or the money to be healthier.

Vivienne Cox ● 2392d

We will have to bring in even more cheap labour from abroad if we don't have any cheap labour of our own left.Unfortunately cookery and food management dropped off the curriculum and many think that the only good food is meals with fancy names when simple things on toast can be more nourishing and less fattening.

Philippa Bond ● 2392d

Johnson's government is still playing catch up, when they could have got ahead of the virus by acting decisively and earlier. Significant that many individuals and businesses went into hibernation well before the government required them too. And as for the Cheltenham Festival...

Ken Munn ● 2392d

I reckon it was all about Cheltenham.

Viv Griffiths ● 2392d

We need to be very careful about pointing the finger, every country is struggling with PPE and testing with the exception of Germany. They have a large diagnostics industry which makes the difference. We import all clothing so we don’t have manufacturing for PPE that’s gives us another massive issue. We also have to be careful comparing numbers because as someone stated there are so many variables in how country’s register cause of death and count deaths in the community. This is a nightmare situation for the world and the truth is no one really understands the virus, the only safe advice is self isolate and keep your distance from people. This pandemic is going to last across the world until we find a vaccine and deaths will increase so let’s not be too hard on all politicians they are doing their best, it might not be good enough but that is the reality of dealing with a pandemic. The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful gift.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2392d

Is the government doing its best?https://www.newstatesman.com/2020/04/eleven-days-may-have-tragically-cost-uk-fight-against-coronavirus

Ken Munn ● 2392d

Jayne, I completely agree with everything you've said.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2392d

JT > "... they are doing their best..."That is, sadly, probably true.

John Whitworth ● 2391d

Agree Jayne, the Government are trying to help everyone.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

I have to respectfully disagree with Jayne. It looks like (by all metrics) that the UK is likely to have one of the worst death rates in the world. If this is the government’s  best effort then we are being ill-served..All of this crisis is political The choices that have been made should be scrutinised, surely? Our testing rate is abysmal. We were told 100,000 per day by the end of April. We are the bottom country in the International League table of testing as reported yesterday.Whilst all countries are having difficulties to some extent we are doing particularly badly. I think a Public Enquiry will be needed to learn any lessons and yes, point the finger.

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

Despite significant 'early testing' the number of case in Germany is actually on the rise for the second consecutive day.
The number of cases is still lower than our own but I think their early re-opening announcement is possibly premature.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-17/german-coronavirus-cases-rise-at-faster-pace-for-a-second-day

N V Brooks ● 2391d

"We need to be very careful about pointing the finger, every country is struggling with PPE and testing with the exception of Germany."  Yes, but note that of the ten countries most affected by Covid-19 only Iran has conducted fewer tests than the UK.  Why do we lag behind? Why did it take so long for our government to recognise the necessity of a lockdown? Why were offices like mine shutting up shop long before the government imposed the lockdown. We expect our leaders to lead, not reluctantly follow.

Robert Fish ● 2391d

“ We expect our leaders to lead, not reluctantly follow.”Precisely!  And our current ‘lockdown’ is a joke. We have no effective leadership so many, many more WILL die.

Steve Taylor ● 2391d

People are already moaning about the lockdown, if they had shut down sooner they would still be blame for doing it wrong, this is a learning curve for every affected Country from what I can see.  Our Government have notdone anything wrong, they were listening to 'experts'

Janice Evans ● 2391d

...and that's just those who died in hospital

Ken Munn ● 2391d

And why we cannot relax the rules yet.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

We should have had our learning curve when we saw the horror that was unfolding in Spain and Italy. Just as Trump did, so our government wasted precious time.

Robert Fish ● 2391d

Listening to advice from 'experts' have said before I would have shut down straight away.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

Yours would have been a more intelligent reaction than the government's.

Robert Fish ● 2391d

They had to go about it in the correct way, have said before I would be a terrible leader because I do things my own way.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

It looks like we will soon find out what the consequences of an early cessation of lockdown. Trump is winding up and supporting people who are protesting for an early stop to the US lockdown. That is while none of the necessary indicators are in place. So those who have doubted the need and effectiveness of locking down will, I’m so very certain, get all the evidence they need.

Alan Clark ● 2391d

The government seems to have done some things wrong . I don’t understand why there is a reluctance to scrutinise and to just say they are trying their best. If their best has failed then why not find out the reasons why. A pandemic has been on the cards for years. If we do wind up with some of the worst death rates in the world then questions will need to be asked at the very least. A Public Enquiry will be needed and take years, unfortunately. They were even promoting social distancing In their briefings while standing next to each other. Shaking hands with Coronavirus patients, allowing Cheltenham to go ahead. The failure to do enough testing.People are still flying into Heathrow and are not even  having their temperatures taken. I flew to Cape Town on Feb 5th and Namibia on Feb 11th. My temperature was taken on both occasions. Nothing here at all.

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

Time will tell if they have failed and see no reason to question everything at this stage.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

The consensus here seems to be that they have made mistakes. If we don’t have scrutiny now then more mistakes, more unnecessary deaths, are likely.

Vivienne Cox ● 2391d

Downing Street has urged people to follow social distancing guidance after the country's most senior police officer was filmed clapping for carers on a crowded Westminster Bridge.Metropolitan Police Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick led dozens of officers in the weekly applause for key workers at 8pm on Thursday.A video posted to the force's Twitter account shows her standing in front of officers, who are lined up with gaps in front of police vehicles along the bridge near parliament.

Steve Taylor ● 2391d

SJ > "If their best has failed then why not find out the reasons why."That should be obvious.I sense that there may be some fear about what such an investigation might discover.

John Whitworth ● 2391d

I suspect this lack of respect for social distancing is rife in the force. I have already posted on here about my experience when two officers came to take a statement from me at home, without any thought for social distancing. Since then my wife's niece was stopped when she was driving with her partner to the supermarket, and told off because she was driving on an L-plate. Her partner replied they were going to do the weekly shop and Raquel was simply taking advantage of a rare opportunity to get some driving practice. The conversation was conducted through the open passenger window, with the officer's head virtually in the car. He ignored a request to talk from further away. Do the police think they're exempt from the rules that lesser mortals are supposed to observe?

Robert Fish ● 2391d

Vivienne, we don't know all the details of any particular decisions at this stage, eventually all will be revealed.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

We should certainly have shut down sooner.  Personally I pretty much stopped going out (including giving up choir which I was sad about) and stopped using public transport as much as possible some two weeks before the official lockdown announcement as the figures about what was happening elsewhere in Europe was terrifying and I have a profound distrust of 'government knows best.' I have no idea what the problem is regarding PPE but have heard that much of what has been supplied is substandard or wrongly labelled -  that will certainly be reviewed in future.  But at least our government isn't inciting people to riot and disobey the lockdown rules as Trump is.  What an incredibly dangerous clown, focused solely on his re-election.

Claire Moran ● 2391d

Regarding Trump, he needs to come to his senses about that it can only end in further spread of the Virus.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

CM > "...  I have a profound distrust of 'government knows best.'"I'm fairly certain that our current government shares your distrust and are going to make damn sure that it proves to be well founded.

John Whitworth ● 2391d

Why can people not bother to do some basic research - Spain and Italy had their first reported cases at the same time as the UK so the epidemic has had the same time to unfold in the UK as Italy & Spain yet the UK has a significantly lower death toll both in absolute numbers and on a per capita basis than those countries, at least so far

Justin Stephenson ● 2391d

Janice - people are dying lonely and miserable deaths. If by questioning and scrutinising now it saves the life of even just one person ´ then it’s worth it. Why are you reluctant to hold our elected representatives to account?

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

"Eventually" may be too late, Janice, if this government doesn't buck up. Just as they made the horrendous mistake of, dare I say it, "dither and delay" in enforcing the lockdown, there'll be the equally obvious temptation, for the sake of the economy, to open up too soon. And we need to keep on questioning what is happening with testing and PPE until we get some satisfactory answers. For the moment we're constantly fobbed off. A little more honesty and transparency wouldn't go amiss.

Robert Fish ● 2391d

Africa take temperature for Ebola then not CV-19 and I expect you know that full well.

Mark Talbot ● 2391d

Sorry, but the basic research suggests you're wrong. First reported case is a somewhat unreliable date. If you look instead at when the first deaths were reported, this shows we're about a week behind Spain and two and a half weeks behind Italy. We had ample time to learn from the Italian experience.

Robert Fish ● 2391d

Then why was I asked if I had been to China in the last two weeks?And I have never had my temperature taken on any visit to RSA. But I expect you know nothing

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

On 19 Feb before immigration at JHB airport we had pretty discreet electric thermometer zapped at our foreheads and said “checking for Coronavirus already” to be replied “no sir Ebola”. As Coronavirus hadn’t got close to Africa then we had no reason to think any differently and I still don’t today. I just relay what we experienced but hey I know nothing; but what I do know is that testing for Ebola doesn’t suit your narrative.

Mark Talbot ● 2391d

Planning and forethought are far far better than hindsight.  It was known that a pandemic was a possibility so should not have been such a shock.

Philippa Bond ● 2391d

Then why were we asked if we’d been to China? You are being deliberately obtuse.

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

Most of the deaths are of those who died of other illnesses but who tested positive for a substance, which we’re told means they had a virus called ‘COVID-19’; and we have billions of viruses inside our bodies. Despite the real number of ‘COVID-19’ deaths being much lower than what is being claimed, the current mortality rate is still 13,000 below the 2014/15 UK Flu death rate; yet the economy has been written off and the population imprisoned. Destitution awaits. Little concern about that tho – but plenty of talk on vaccines – vaccines, vaccines, vaccines. Wake up, you fools..

Michael Brown ● 2391d

Give over Michael. Start your own thread for your nonsense

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

Not rising Stuart.

Mark Talbot ● 2391d

THE  VAXINATORS

Michael Brown ● 2391d

Trouble is, if Trump is wrong (which he almost certainly is) plainloads of untested Americans are arriving in the UK each day.

Claire Moran ● 2391d

In a genuine pandemic crisis, deemed so bad it was necessary to destroy businesses and lock everyone up indefinitely, foreigners wouldn’t be allowed into the country by plane or any other form of transport. This evidence alone proves the fraud for what it is.

Michael Brown ● 2391d

Have you all seen the Times story tomorrow? The recklessness and complacency of the PM is only surpassed by the recklessness and complacency of the people who voted for him. Anybody who watched the BBC doc covering his stint as Foreign Sec and still voted for him needs to take some time to reflect.

Paul Campbell ● 2391d

It is a shocking report but there will be the usual apologists on here saying that Johnson and the government have done their best and that we must all be more positive.

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

I'm sure they have done their best. I doubt they have deliberately done less than their best. That may not turn out to have been good enough and there have been plenty of mistakes made, especially in hindsight.  However, do you think any of the other political leadership teams standing in the recent election would have done any better? After all, one couldn't even organise to have the correct shoes on their feet! I believe the civil servants (chief scientific officer etc) would still be the same and i'd imagine they'd be giving the same advice. 

Rob Reynolds ● 2391d

It’s quite astounding that South Africa is so far advanced in controlling the virus and keeping deaths down compared to us. Our government and opposition have really, really screwed this up. And as far as London is concerned, our mayor has been totally ineffective in controlling social distancing

Steve Taylor ● 2391d

Read the article Rob. Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings. He disappeared at weekends to Chequers because he was attending to personal matters, calls to order protective gear were ignored, the scientists’ warnings fell on deaf ears. Aides saying that working for Johnson is exactly as they had feared it would be. Like working for the Chief Exec of a Local Authority twenty years ago. And this is The Sunday Times not a Momentum rag. It’s hard to imagine any post-WWII PM being as insouciant and lazy as this one. And to think he likes to compare himself to Churchill. People who haven’t watched the BBC doc on his stint as Foreign Sec really should as it will show exactly what we have in 10 Downing St. We are learning the hard way that there is a lot more to running a country than getting Brexit done.

Paul Campbell ● 2391d

Please read the report in the Sunday Times. It suggests that the government has been incompetent and that lives could have been saved with better planning.As to the point of another party or  coalition going it better, we just don’t know, do we? But there are specific criticisms of the PM who missed 5 Cobra meetings and questions are raised about his poor work ethic.

Stewart Jones ● 2391d

Boris will rise from the throes of death soon after sacking Matt Handjob and a few more idiots,to tell us all that he will now lead us through this and the those that voted for him will rise and salute their great Churchillian leader until they realise he is a useless buffoon. Tell you what folks, am enjoying my lock down peace and quiet in my back garden because life will get very interesting after this. Keep save

James Smith-Jones ● 2391d

I don't subscribe to the Times so can't read it. I have just looked at Sky's reporting on the article and the bullet points certainly don't read well, though i can't see anything about laziness.I do think a horrendous crisis like this will always throw more criticism out than praise for how it's handled.  On face value of the article in isolation, it certainly seems it could have been done better. Do you think any of the others would have done any better though?

Rob Reynolds ● 2391d

I am no fan of Corbyn and we will never know how he would have dealt with the crisis. I don’t think that is a reason to let Boris off the hook. The laziness is his preference for country breaks and not working weekends during the biggest crisis the country has faced since WWII. I’d like to think that Corbyn for all his failings would have at least put in a shift, turned up to the meetings and stayed in 10 Downing St working.All the people saying they are doing their best. No. No. No. They  really are not.Gove has basically confirmed what this article is reporting in an interview this morning by being unable to deny any of the details. Or unwilling because he spots his opportunity.

Paul Campbell ● 2391d

How long did Johnson spend in the Caribbean with his latest mistress? When, at the least, as a newly elected PM he should have been immersing himself in the many strategic issues (not just Brexit and the possibility of a pandemic) of concern to the nation.

Ken Munn ● 2391d

With a majority of 80 MPs, non-Tories in the current parliament are being ignored by Johnson, at least until he decides the time is right to drag them into some form of consultative committee so that he can share out some of the blame.What do we want?Proportional Representation.When do we want it?Last December.

Ken Munn ● 2391d

I was talking with a pal yesterday who explained that a major pharmaceutical company years ago knew that at some point there would be a major pandemic but guess what, don’t know the timing and don’t know the virus so impossible to plan. That’s the reality. Putting politics to one side which we should under the circumstances every government is operating blind and being led by scientific and medical expert, non of which exist on this forum. I am guessing all those on this forum being so opinionated have never run a business or made a different decision with the benefit of hindsight!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2391d

Jayne, read the Sunday Times article referenced elsewhere on the forum. You'll see that a pandemic was recognised as the number one threat to UK security, yet austerity meant that stocks of PPE were allowed to run down and go out of date, staff were pulled away for Brexit planning, when the danger of a pandemic became clear Johnson's government did nothing for 5 weeks, etc. As to your guess that none on this forum have ever run a business, you're way out.

Ken Munn ● 2391d

Ken, never believe what you read in the papers.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

JT > "... impossible to plan."That is, quite frankly, nonsense.For example:https://www.gov.uk/topic/public-safety-emergencies/emergencies-preparation-response-recoveryHave you never heard of business continuity planning or disaster recovery?

John Whitworth ● 2391d

"Putting politics to one side, which we should under the circumstances" - your saying this only shows your own political bias. We don't need to be medical or scientific experts to appreciate the enormity of the government's failing, and not just with the benefit of hindsight. The writing was on the wall, and many companies, including my own, decided to close down to protect their staff before the lockdown was imposed. There are no excuses.

Robert Fish ● 2391d

Agree Jayne, put politics to one side, how they can pick on Johnson who has been so ill and clearly look poorly a good week before they said he had Coronavirus, plus he had been looking very tired and we don't know how long he had been infected before it took hold.  Like a load of blood hounds.

Janice Evans ● 2391d

Touché. But similarly, never believe what a politician says.

Ken Munn ● 2391d

All press articles have political biases, shutting down an economy is hugely damaging on so many levels, it has never been done and my guess is never been anticipated. China didn’t shut down its economy so all those being so judgemental spare a thought for all those in the world that are actually responsible for making such a damaging decision.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2391d

Johnson desperately wanted the job. He has proved incapable of handling it. Now he has deaths on his hands.

Ken Munn ● 2391d

Planning for pandemics is possible and actually happens. All the time. Businesses and governments are right now successfully executing those plans. Plenty of people on this forum have run or are running businesses. When the stuff is hitting the fan the bare minimum that is asked of a business leader is that they are present and working their backsides off to make the best of the situation. Mistakes will be made but it is unforgivable for the leader to be off preening himself with his girlfriend and sorting out the wreckage of his family life when the country is facing the biggest crisis of his lifetime.

Paul Campbell ● 2391d

That's a cheap shot, suggesting we shouldn't criticise Johnson because he's been ill. The incubation period for Covid-19 is estimated to be 1-14 days. The inexcusable dither and delay in February and early March was well before he would have been infected.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

Picking on someone who has been very ill, shame on both of you there will be plenty of time to discuss what went on in February.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

No, shame on you, Janice, for your hypocrisy in using your idol's illness as an excuse for trying to stifle legitimate questions about the conduct of the campaign against Covid-19. Many more lives will be lost if this government doesn't get it's act together.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

Robert, I said there is plenty of time for that, and now is not the time if you have any sense of decency.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

He’s not dead for goodness sake. You can’t expect there to be a moratorium on scrutinising the PM and the government because he is recovering from Covid-19. If you feel so strongly about it then why don’t you write to the editor of the Sunday Times to express your opprobrium at their publishing of the story.

Paul Campbell ● 2390d

Stewart, understand why you want to but just think now is not the time, there will be plenty of time later, plus Johnson has been very ill, can it wait a little while.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Paul, I don't read it.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Jayne, agree, also dont think we know enough and it will take a long timeto find out and be able to make any judgement on the matter,

Janice Evans ● 2390d

“ non-Tories in the current parliament are being ignored by Johnson, ”I don’t think they are being ignored. They just aren’t saying much or coming up with any ideas. It’s as if they have all shrugged their shoulders and done a runner!

Steve Taylor ● 2390d

Yes that is obvious.

Paul Campbell ● 2390d

You know Steve, I bet Corbyn was so relieved he never got elected when this Virus struck.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

“ China didn’t shut down its economy “I am very involved with business in China and I can assure you that China shut down its economy big time.

Steve Taylor ● 2390d

Paul, don't want to end up like .....

Janice Evans ● 2390d

"there will be plenty of time to discuss what went on in February."True. For those that survive.

Ken Munn ● 2390d

"Paul, I don't read it."Ah! The ostrich stratagem.

Ken Munn ● 2390d

All considered Johnson has the worst job in the world at the moment.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Try it Ken, give us rest.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Jayne, I’m not sure I quite understand your point. I think the Chinese may have under reported their number of deaths.I’m not sure one can dismiss an article on the grounds of it being politically biased simply because it contains views that one might not hold. The article covers a range of issues related to the virus and some very serious allegations against individuals.If by challenging and scrutinising decisions we save even just one life then we must do it. I can only imagine how people would have been whipped up into a frenzy had Corbyn been elected in December and presided over these figures. I say that as someone who has never supported Corbyn

Stewart Jones ● 2390d

No, the people who have the worst job in the world are the doctors and nurses on the front-line. They have to deal with the consequences of this government's failings, and do it without the PPE that the government should have provided.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

Steve, do you know exactly when China did shut down only have heard the Virus was around that area since November.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Every leader right now has the worst job, there will be multiple waves of this virus as we relax the social distancing rules and there will be many more deaths their challenge is to balance this out with the massive negative effects in every country they are forecasting massive unemployment, mental health issues, DV on the rise. In the poorer countries mass starvation if people can not work. There is no easy answer.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2390d

Robert, it should be here soon, other Countries also need these supplies, so best we can make some here.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

It's been promised to 'be here soon' for three weeks at least.

Ken Munn ● 2390d

Ken let's hope you will be unable to continue moaning next week for nurses sake.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

The nurses are moaning, and no-one blames them. Why not Ken?

Roger Talbot ● 2390d

Wonder if you saying that if the Daily Mail had published that article instead of the Sunday Times ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2390d

Ken moans continually, the nurses are moaning for good reason.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

It's quite likely that a few thousand lives would already have been saved if the govt had got its act together when it should have done, Robert.

Roger Talbot ● 2390d

Cut the tendentious "moaning", Janice. Ken is criticising the government on behalf of the nurses, who are so poorly protected, and on behalf of all of us who are endangered by this government's incompetence. You should be grateful to him instead of abusing him. But then you'd never do that, because you're always uncomfortable with people who expose inconvenient truths which don't chime with your prejudices.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

Your trolling is boring.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

You always resort to pathetic accusations of trolling when you have no more rational argument to offer. I should take it as a badge of honour.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

You can read it on the "Thanks To Johnson And Cummings" thread below, Janice.

Roger Talbot ● 2390d

No I don't, Kens not a troll.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Yours seems to be a highly personal definition of troll. Care to explain it?

Robert Fish ● 2390d

😉

Janice Evans ● 2390d

The answer is to stop the virus spreading and reduce fatalities. We can deal with the economy and mental health issues and poverty later when the war against Covid is won. That should surely be every world leader’s  priority. No point in worrying about mental health and poverty if people are going to die of the virus. A total lockdown is the answer for now.

Steve Taylor ● 2390d

I have been reading about this virus for some time and the WHO gave the world the warnings about where.when and how. The trouble is some of the worlds leaders right now are lying through their back teeth about it.  If you mix it with a level of stupefying incompetence then you get mass tragedy. What should be happening now had we started from patient 0 is testing every new case and following their pattern of social contact.  Our medics should be dealing with patients instead of dying because they had the correct PPE from the get go. We would not have had to build the scandalous Nightingale hospital which will only take patients who are 100% healthy prior to the virus and the team of nursing staff who take them to it must stay to care for them taking them away from the patients in hospitals and they must bring the ventilators and other equipment from the NHS hospital as well.  Our care homes would not be considered the most dangerous place to be right now.  If care workers were not on 0 hours contracts with no PPE then my life and others would not be in danger due to it  the Hospitals had been told they could have re called staff earlier and done what is necessary to be prepared.  If local councils had been told they would have been able to prepare their staff and the voluntary sector so support was in place.  So many countries have had their own govt cock up some of these things but ours did all of them and continues to do so. When this is all over we can take stock and have a seriously in depth investigation but until then we must survive and to do that we must tell this government we are not taking it and they must form a govt of unity in this crisis so everyone can help with idea's and contacts.  But I have no hope this will happen because we are dealing with selfish clueless idiots

Caroline Carney ● 2390d

Yet Sweden only has 1,540 deaths and is hardly counting at all (29 registered today), and without any lockdown, and has some of the worst figures of the non-lockdown countries. Swedish expert, Prof. Johan Giesecke, explains why there is little or no benefit of a lockdown (as is being proven).

Michael Brown ● 2390d

The UK has a population density of more than 10 times that of Sweden. You're comparing apples and pears. Obviously there's much less need for lockdown in a country as sparsely populated as Sweden.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

Sweden has a population of 10m compared to the UK’s 66m.  66 divided by 10 = 6.6. 6.6 x 1,540 = 10,164 yet UK CV death rates with lockdown are 16,060 Japan has a population of 126m and doesn’t have a lockdown, although I believe restrictions have been increased. Their reported CV death rates are 236!If you don’t like my examples of non-lockdown countries, please select your own and show how they are faring less well if this is what you believe. Good luck.

Michael Brown ● 2390d

6.6 x 1,540 = 10,164 yet UK CV death rates with lockdown are 16,060 I don't think simply dividing the population of Sweden vs UK is adequate without considering variables such as how transient a country is and how susceptible this can make it.

Matthew Swain ● 2390d

There is not one non-lockdown country that has reported above average CV death rates, and most are lower. Simple.

Michael Brown ● 2390d

I referred to population density, Michael. Let me clarify, in case you still don't understand: the population of Sweden is 10.2 million, in a land area of 447,430 sq Kms; that of the UK is 67.6 million in a land area of only 243,610 sq Kms. Calculate it for yourself - the population density in the UK is 12 times greater than Sweden's. As I said, apples and pears.

Robert Fish ● 2390d

Japan then.

Michael Brown ● 2390d

My son lives in Japan. I spoke to him today. Because Japan’s constitution was re-written after the war, with overall control from the USA, Japan cannot, apparently, enforce a total lockdown: the government’s powers are restricted in case, I suppose, they got militaristic again. However things are recommended now and the Japanese are mostly of a conformist nature. Rather like here when people thought our government was being slow, people imposed restrictions on themselves. It will take time to see the outcome of Japan’s actions. My son reports going to a restaurant for lunch and being the only customer, so socially distant, and the owners were grateful for his custom.

Vivienne Cox ● 2390d

Indeed, and the Remainers want it to become so dense it is completely saturated.  Anyone see the brilliant The Americas with Simon Reeve tonight?  Climate  change and existing economic issues are forcing a huge move from the South of the world to the North, while the North already has its own climate change problems along with many other issues.  I work with animal rescue organisations and while they have big hearts they recognise there is a limit to how many they can take.  Just taking more and more from other continents is not the answer.  We have many of the technologies, both medical and in terms of helping countries with climate change, to assist them sort this without moving from their own countries, or at least dispersing them in a rational way to all the countries that could help - including the US, and other non-European countries. It's about time the Arabic states stepped up to the plate.  Some Brexiteers are selfish, heartless bastards but some just see the danger of completely open borders in the face of pandemics and climate change and want to help those less fortunate in other ways other than people having to migrate from their own countries to an alien society that already has its own problems.

Claire Moran ● 2390d

Interesting, Vivienne. If Japan was allowed to impose a lockdown and had exercised that right, I'm sure some people would claim that the lockdown was the reason for the mere 236 CV deaths, when it's simply the result of a commonsense approach. All day BBC lies aren't helping people.

Michael Brown ● 2390d

hahahahahahahahahahahahahah

James Smith-Jones ● 2390d

It is laughable, this pathetic and random of pulling out numbers with no correlation to key data such as infection start date, population living conditions, social activity, etc. But what is more laughable is that Brown has no suggestion as to how to address contagion risks - apart from lets all go down the pub. Which, in terms of limiting new infections, has some flaws.

Alan Clark ● 2390d

Alan, you accuse me of selecting countries randomly. Please select a broad group of countries, half with lockdown and half without lockdown to show that lockdown is irrefutably justified. I don’t think you’ll be able to do that in medical terms alone, never mind taking into account the disastrous economic and social effects, all of which will lead to a rise in poverty and ill-health; but show us what you’ve got. Regarding how I would have approached the pandemic: My actions would have mirrored those recommended by epidemiologist, Prof. Johan Giesecke.

Michael Brown ● 2390d

The Swedish approach has been the previous UK herd immunity model. Yes? It assumes the fatalities from Covid-19 infections to be very low - in the order of 0.1% of cases. This is far from proven, but let's assume it to be accurate.Herd immunity comes with (1) very high percentage of a population already infected and recovered - about 50%+; and (2) immunity from second infection - not proven, just assumed; and (3) no mutation of Covid-19 - assumed. That is a lot of brave assumptions - but pretend that are true.33 million people infected = 33,000 deaths but more importantly 100,000's of seriously ill people. The system would not cope. The total number of deaths might be about the same as we will end up with, but with a much more rapid wave of illnesses swamping our care system. It's a dumb idea based on risky assumptions.

Alan Clark ● 2390d

Hi Claire, open borders have always been a concern to me and the increased pressures is causes within a society plus like now with the pandemic.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

Agree Alan.

Janice Evans ● 2390d

What you describe hasn’t happened in any of the non-lockdown countries, so it’s nonsensical to make assumptions to the contrary; and you haven’t provided any evidence to show that there is any medical benefit of a lockdown. All you’ve done is share your continued fantasy.

Michael Brown ● 2390d

Most people like borders to be open for them, but not for others.

Ken Munn ● 2389d

Meaning exactly? If you read all my posts you will see I have question the return of people who have left here to live abroad only to return years later when they require medical treatment.

Janice Evans ● 2389d

Lockdown does slow infection rates. Thus reducing the pace of growth of people getting ill. Thus reducing the demand for hospital treatment. It does not cure or stop infection. It simply slows it. This buys time to better prepare our health system, or should if our government got their act together.

Alan Clark ● 2389d

Quite.

Ken Munn ● 2389d

I agree with Janice. People who have left the UK to live abroad should never ever be allowed back. In fact -people who go on holiday abroad should also not be allowed to return. They wanted the sun and sea and surf so they should suck it up.  It's a disgrace all the flying and driving and sailing to foreign lands - very bad to pollute so much.

Steve Taylor ● 2389d

It's a disgrace all the flying and driving and sailing to foreign lands - very bad to pollute so much.  The driving distance from Chiswick to the French coast is shorter than a trip to the West Country.

Matthew Swain ● 2389d

Anyway, what's wrong with a fortnight in a boarding house in Skegness?

Ken Munn ● 2389d

But the pollutants from the aging ferry fleets are outrageously high. In fact cruise ships are one of the worst pollutants.

Steve Taylor ● 2389d

You'll be cycling to Skegness will you Ken ? 🤣

Loraine Pemberton ● 2389d

Never hear of anyone going to Skegness.... apart from Adrian Mole that is.

Matthew Swain ● 2389d

A week would be better.

Robert Fish ● 2389d

So go by Eurotunnel. What is a shame is that there isn't the facility to load your car onto a train in the London area and offload it somewhere near the Spanish border, enjoying a sleeping car on the same train en route. In the 1960s you could do that from Calais to Perpignan or Narbonne but despite the opening of the Chunnel, nowadays you have to load your car onto a train in the Paris suburbs and travel yourself on a separate train and hope they both reach the same destination.

Richard Greenhough ● 2389d

It's SO bracing !

Richard Greenhough ● 2389d

Does bracing mean effing cold?

Ken Munn ● 2389d

Respectfully suggest that at least 2 weeks for Ken would be even better !

Loraine Pemberton ● 2389d

Brilliant news if cautious cases and deaths coming down, well done to everyone obviously a special 👏👏👏 to all frontline workers but let’s not forget a 👏👏👏 for everyone following the governments guidelines

Jayne Thorburn ● 2389d

Hopefully, the first peak has passed .

Stewart Jones ● 2389d

Still 12,000 down on the UK 2014/15 Flu death rate, all of which are likely to be genuine (no scam running at the time). They're gonna have to get working on the next peak immediately.

Michael Brown ● 2389d

Hahahahahahahahaha

James Smith-Jones ● 2389d